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tomohawk
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

khaibar wrote:
many players have been complaining about resets and investments. I never made any $ investment in the game so I might not know how they feel. This decision falls to the buyer of the game eventually. But perhaps instead of resetting the game add new features that would level the playing ground

- Legacy Faction Points => Old investments preserved, factions pretty much start from scratch => FP wars

- Reset unknown (no one uses them or mines them for the unknown) + add a new set that requires unknown instead of ore => **** load of battles on dominus

- Remove purchasing of PUs with tbs => Salvage what's left of crew market + Old investment in PUs gain value + zedus beacon only PU income

- Dont reset commander, add subcommander with unique abilities etc..

- Dont remove crews, add a new collection of merits or Tier 2 merits => Recover crew training

- Planets with strux limitation => Recover forgotten units etc...


you so smart..

this melded with wannabe's "Legacy" ideas seems to be the best rout. No one loses anything per say but we get reasons to fight again.
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Vanoi
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garrow wrote:
Vanoi wrote:
Wouldn't it make sense to actually do something before a reset?


We are open to suggestions Smile


and wannabie, I am in full agreement with you, the old system failed, we need a new one that will not putter out.


And having to buy out TW helps this how...? *shrug*

I mean what do I know, all I did was look over the code 24/7 trying to think of crap to do.
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corclaork
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 5:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vanoi wrote:
garrow wrote:
Vanoi wrote:
Wouldn't it make sense to actually do something before a reset?


We are open to suggestions Smile


and wannabie, I am in full agreement with you, the old system failed, we need a new one that will not putter out.


And having to buy out TW helps this how...? *shrug*

I mean what do I know, all I did was look over the code 24/7 trying to think of crap to do.


And dont you agree that having full access to the entiraty of the code would help you acheive that? Frizz wont give even you that... And who ever buys theg ame would be insane not to involve you and khai in the coding since you two are the only major players from OS.... not to mention you wouldnt have to wait around for frizz to get bored and look at the game for thigns to happen. A new owner/ group would hopefully take what we learned from the failure of OS and do better.

Cor
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Battalia
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Call me old fashioned, but honestly... TW was a cult classic... FOR ITS TIME. I'm not going to lie, with DS's passing, the genre is literally wide open with only silly facebook ports spamming every possible time frame, but TW was unique in that money wasn't required to play, nor was it required to get full access to the game.

The problem with DS is it doesn't sit well with a schedule anymore. A prime example of this is the base mechanic. A bases defense was a difficult task alone, but even a player manning the turrets would double its efficiency and call off some attacks. Add in a dropping player at the right time and a base was almost impossible to take. Big extremes for what is more or less end-game content. Not to mention, the planets play styles went from lone-commander play to massive base action, but nothing in-between. No army VS army action to be had ever. Pity since those were the most fun when they sporadically happened (in my opinion).

If you want to compete with today's genre's you would have to wipe the entire base mechanic, and restart it in a new way. Personally I see promise in a game where deploying meant playing, not sitting and staring at a blue (green was much better!) user interface. having to deploy to make units and mods, using your trade building to send and receive goods, impassible terrain allowing for tactics, the mind lights up with possibilities.

In-fact I would probably remove everything passive about the game. Passive FP gathering? No thanks! Passive mining bases? What a bore! Passive building? I made one bright lance order and never mass produced anything ever again. (But I did feel a little rich for a short period =p) People want to play! Not baby a user interface.

In summary... The amount of work to FIX drop-shock to a competent version of fun isn't worth the work, or the money. Nor would the end product BE drop-shock any more, and I bet that is against the terms for buying it. You would be better off to make a new game, because no matter what life you breath into this dead horse, it will come with the stink of the past, the strings of the members, and the potential it never lived up to.
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yinuss
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Battalia wrote:
the planets play styles went from lone-commander play to massive base action, but nothing in-between


This was something I always wanted. So many planets yet they only catered to the two extremes of the spectrum.

Battalia wrote:
impassible terrain allowing for tactics


Always wanted this too. It came up on forum many times, and proved to be a divisive issue.

Battalia wrote:
In-fact I would probably remove everything passive about the game. Passive FP gathering? No thanks!


A component of this problem I believe resulted from inadequately developed planet concepts. While some were fairly good at sparking player interaction, others were terrible. Hadeas comes to mind, as does Dominus.

Hadeas nets.... so stupid, yet they gained acceptance among the player base.
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corclaork
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trerro wrote:
CC is considering collectively throwing in the 5k, we're polling to see how many of us are interested in chipping in and such.


If you guys need some help coming up with it i can help.... If not i should have the full amount sometime early next year to buy it outright if noones done it bye then. If anyones looking to get a group started or has one and is trying to get some more support its a good idea to use the forums.

And batt i think you are spot on in some areas but i also think you underestimate how much time some people still invest in gaming.

Cor
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Battalia
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not about "how much time some people still invest in gaming." Cor. It's about WHEN you can game. I myself have invested 26 hours into destiny since Tuesday of last week. About 4 hours a day. Mind you this is another extreme of the spectrum, I don't always game that much but I'm having fun.

The problem I was referencing is that deploying a base required 24 hour gaming. People would leave cell phone numbers and e-mails set to alarms if they received one so they could pull themselves out of sleep to defend a base, etc.

That is silly.

The action should be WHEN you are gaming. Not trying to make yourself available for gaming when the action is on. Let me break it down:

Solo'ing someones base: mediocre rewards, little risk, low level of fun.
Attacking a defended base: excellent rewards, massive risk, high level of fun AND frustration.

Again, both extremes of the spectrum. Not saying every defense will win, and not saying every solo will win, but those are the most often scenarios. What I would want in a strategy game is level footing, acceptable levels of risk, and good rewards. When I am playing against someone else who is playing, I am having fun. When I am trying to attack the base of someone who wants to get back to bed and just UD's everything... Yea.
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wannabe121
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya know, the more I read it, the more sense Batt makes.

Let me spitball some ideas now that I'm trying to imagine how we could try to keep some of the esprit of TW while making it appeal to non-hardcore audiences...

* Planets don't cycle. An arbitrary time limit might be imposed (I.E. "If I'm not back by this time, call the cops") to create tension or discourage botters. Dead items start a countdown timer until they can no longer be salvaged and are removed from the map (~2/3 our current cycle times? 1/3? Varied by planet type?). Relics would combine a keep-alive timer and compound interest on command gain; capturing the relic activates the keep-alive and starts generating a static amount of command with a dynamic rate. Stealing a relic no longer transfers all command gained to the new owner, though they don't reset the rate either. (Rate always increases until relic "dies" and is removed from map.) Beacons only use keep-alive timer, same reward tiers. Keep turn mechanic and all units taking their actions on same turn.

* Core World(s). Your commander's HQ, includes Construction tab, daily resource collectors, requisition newbie units from RC/UF. Can double as a tutorial planet with scripted events at low levels.

* Buildings can go one of three ways... 1) similar to current style, plan base and choose to deploy w/ it, construction vehicles go and fill out base design autonomously and undeploy (treat as seperate army for Dropship command)... 2) all buildings must be created on the spot, UVs (or could create Mobile Construction Units for this purpose) create buildings where they are if they have the resources. Otherwise, you can go out and mine/salvage before coming back to base... 3) bases drop pre-fab'd where allowed, otherwise see one of the above (nobody wants to spend 50 minutes building a base).

I'll edit this if anything else comes to mind.
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Dogg1000 wrote:
olla wrote:
... Much better than nukes, that's too North Korean IMHO.
If these nukes are north korean, implement them anyway. They wont get 3 squares before tripping on a rock and turning into salvage.
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Battalia
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like your train of thought wannabe, but you may be swinging too hard in that direction.

Deploying your base should be one of the first things you do, the big question is where. Every faction could have their own faction space. Similar to what undeployed is right now. (Or heck, to keep things simple, a planet in a "neutral" zone where pvp is disallowed. to keep things easy on the servers and complexity) You can trade, build, chat, do pretty much anything here. However, there is little to mine, and kill. New players can practice moving units with no risk and get their bearings. Deployment to and from the planet would be instantaneous.

Then you would have the actual combat zones where deployment is a commitment. Something that takes time to establish your homebase, and something that takes time to pack up and leave from. You can tailor your army and deployment to the planets specs accordingly, and evaccing would be done from your or an allied base. (no more evaccing in the middle of a fight.)

As for cycling the planet, you could probably do some pretty fun things with that. For example, add a dark and light side to each planet, and have them cycle accordingly. During the night cycle is when the creepy crawlies come out (shak) who haul away broken bits and unearth ore deposits getting in the way of their tunneling. Its junk to them anyways. Players looking for the challenge can stick around for the rewards, or evac before it hits horizon.

You get the idea. Make the action come to those who are playing, not the players come to the action.
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wannabe121
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alright; I see a few things that could use some elaboration:

1) New players deployed in the Neutral Zone might think it's a training or PvP planet; they spend 30+ minutes looking for the bases of other people only to realize they can't do anything and quit. It might be prudent to add a building unique to Neutral Zone bases that sends players through the process of modifying, readying, and deploying an army. Or a periodic chat message/whisper reminding players that the fun is on other planets and how to get there.

2) If we do a day/night cycle, which planets will feature Shak? Which will have them as very rare (~1% or less) spawns? For planets that don't spawn Shak, what will spawn during night; the next level of bandits, current level + a base, normal bandits but they start moving toward players as if they had sight, etc.?

3) When we're talking about a "commitment" for combat zones, how long are we talking for (for example) base setup, finding a supply crate, and undeploy?

4) What happens if your base is destroyed? Would you be stuck on the planet until an ally deploys a base, or would Emergency Evac kick in? (Since it's my understanding that we're tying building to buildings, I'm not assuming that a base could be rebuilt if it was completely destroyed.)

I do agree wholeheartedly that the game needs a shot of adrenalin to compete with modern titles, though I'm a bit weary of having it turn into Base Defense Simulator 2020.
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Dogg1000 wrote:
olla wrote:
... Much better than nukes, that's too North Korean IMHO.
If these nukes are north korean, implement them anyway. They wont get 3 squares before tripping on a rock and turning into salvage.
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Gear
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 4:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Battalia wrote:
It's not about "how much time some people still invest in gaming." Cor. It's about WHEN you can game. I myself have invested 26 hours into destiny since Tuesday of last week. About 4 hours a day. Mind you this is another extreme of the spectrum, I don't always game that much but I'm having fun.

The problem I was referencing is that deploying a base required 24 hour gaming. People would leave cell phone numbers and e-mails set to alarms if they received one so they could pull themselves out of sleep to defend a base, etc.

That is silly.

The action should be WHEN you are gaming. Not trying to make yourself available for gaming when the action is on. Let me break it down:

Solo'ing someones base: mediocre rewards, little risk, low level of fun.
Attacking a defended base: excellent rewards, massive risk, high level of fun AND frustration.

Again, both extremes of the spectrum. Not saying every defense will win, and not saying every solo will win, but those are the most often scenarios. What I would want in a strategy game is level footing, acceptable levels of risk, and good rewards. When I am playing against someone else who is playing, I am having fun. When I am trying to attack the base of someone who wants to get back to bed and just UD's everything... Yea.


Spot on! I think you have hit the proverbial nail on the head.

This is one of the fundamental parts wrong/broken with the game. Coming up with a way to change this would indeed bring me back playing and I believe many others, it would accommodate for people who have to put real life activities and priorities in front of gaming. I for one gave up playing when I started my degree as well as taking on more work.

One of the other aspects that has always been flawed in my eyes is the unfair advantage people have by ganging up on individuals, this has made many people quit the game in the past due to constantly being outnumbered.

Maybe a system could be developed so that once a person is engaged in combat with another person no more members from that faction can fire upon them?

_G
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J4
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 3:11 pm    Post subject: well Reply with quote

I always enjoyed how i had to coordinate to defend a base, but i would prefer if there were not 5 such planets, just the one. And i think fp is a pointless system, almost everyone plays big fights for chance at the salvage rights, which is unique and awesome in this game.

Half of all my drops to konu I was ganged up on, i would rather see limitations to what you can drop on that planet, like the third dropper from a fac to konu should have a lot of limitations after turn 60. Or maybe even ce lowers every 10 turns as to what can be dropped.

As I have said until I am blue in the face, the 3 types of commander need 3 different types of targeting/moving/unit selection options that are tailored to what they are trying to do, or even, to trash the 3 types of commanders, and let players design their own unit sizes/groupings/targeting.

The 6 stack or individual targeting is just so outdated and click-intensive, and the 'i hate playing with high stakes and ever losing anything' players have forced the other kind of player to play a game so annoying that look, no one is playing it.

But I have given up on this game being the game that gets turn based simultaneously calculated turns with perma loss and long cycle sandboxes correct and I have moved on.
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Frageran
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I look at online gaming as a whole, the biggest problem I see is that the oldest players become the richest, most powerful players in the game and are almost impossible to dislodge from their lofty thrones. There are always exceptions of particularly gifted and dedicated players who join late and quickly earn a reputation, but it usually seems like whoever just happened to find the game first has a huge leg up on anyone behind them.

Sometimes this happens at the expense of new players. Market manipulation in DropShock is and was rampant. Coordinated targeting of smaller factions that have 1/5th of the players and units of larger factions definitely happened as well (usually just due to pure boredom rather than malice), and with DropShock's particular perma-loss system this kind of thing was brutal. DropShock has the unique problem of having a difficult learning curve. Dropping and fighting is the best way to get that experience but again faced with a harsh perma-loss system and fighting players with years of experience and much better units, it seems like an impossible task to find one's own space in an already established hierarchy. Hardcore players sometimes found ways but casual players be damned.

Now I don't want to derail this into some pseudo-political bullshit rant, but I guess the topic I'm trying to bring up is philosophical in a way. Online games are always set up in a "capitalist" sort of way; rewarding players with points / money / resources for their efforts, as any game should right? So as I've said, often times players who just happened to be here first get a clear advantage. The problem is that as the game ages it's doomed to become stagnant with this system. Old players become impossibly rich and new players struggle to find footing. DropShock again was hit especially hard by this because every new expansion added a new level of complexity, requiring players to possess larger and more diverse armies. Rich players could cope, old players good luck.

I'm not pretending to know a solution to this problem. But I fear any kind of reset would simply run into the exact same failures that killed DropShock the first time around. There's certain parts of the system that basically need to be scrapped and overhauled completely.

TL;DR: Don't take any mechanics of DropShock for granted as you work to create version 2.0. Maybe remove ore entirely. Maybe change the way players pay to deploy. Be creative and try to think into the future.
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Onto my order I need to tack a stack of Shak Attack Pack, so I can smack back my enemies with flak. Quack.
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corclaork
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frageran wrote:
I'm not pretending to know a solution to this problem. But I fear any kind of reset would simply run into the exact same failures that killed DropShock the first time around. There's certain parts of the system that basically need to be scrapped and overhauled completely.


This. This is exactly what i want to do.... Figure out a way to make the game better THEN do a reset. Now several aspects of the game do need serious attention namely strux building and base mechanics to name a few big ones but thats not to say theres plenty of other small changes that can help also(UI for instance) . The biggest thing is getting people to recognize that a reset will be needed if we want to move forward.


Cor
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Walterohdim
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

People shouldn't have a problem with a reset. Either there will not be enough players to make coming here and using your purchased items worth while, or the game completely dies and they go away.

If a reset is part of the solution at least we still have a place to gather and play.

Walterohdim
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