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#75 - [Tweak] Change Armylimit to Celimit (Rejected)
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krisjaniz
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Walterohdim wrote:
Quote:
Upsides to doing this:

1. It makes (almost) all units matter. Currently, the game says a 400 CE tank is exactly equal to a 1200 CE Wyv. The result is that every fight is the same 7-8 units, because nothing else makes sense. With the new system, weaker units en masse become viable, and the super powerful units like Wyvs represent a meaningful tradeoff. In time, it could be possible to get virtually every unit represented on the battlefield, because you choose based on what fits your strategy, not simply the strongest thing you can shove into an army slot.

2. It makes mod choices matter. Currently, most units use the same 2-3 loadouts 90% of the time - and why wouldn't they? When you're dropping on CE, however, using an intentionally sub-optimal build becomes strategically interesting... taking that hit to shielding or losing that extra gun in favor of getting another 10 units down may be just what you need to win.

3. It encourages more people to actually use armies. Most players are able to get an army build through effort or cash. Most are not if integration is required to matter. While Ied units will still have an advantage with the CE system, it will be a sane one.

4. It could actually revive the strux market. It's pretty hard to trade when everyone wants the same small list of units... but switch to a system where instead of 7-8 superior choices, it's deploy what best fits your style, and suddenly you just may want to trade around.

5. It encourages all kinds of mixing and matching, instead of a giant brick or a set of identical squads. We could even see a successful deployment of a formation other than a line!


I quoted Trerro for the above. Also Corclark is highly supportive of this idea. I really think we need to think beyond our biases and think about the game as a whole not just our favorite parts or what makes it best for me.


1. It makes the expensive units NOT matter. Just look at the CE.

2. Yes, what fun (facepalm).

3. First, integration will be an disadvantage. People who actually pay for the game won't. Second, the rich with their 500+ BZ crews will gain an even bigger advantage than ever. Just count those +x*500 damage points per gun... Same goes for shields, armor, ammo...

4. It is stupid to think something like this might revive strux market. All who can pay money have already acquired a nice strux set of almost all the units in the game. Simples and intermediates are not the ones that are missing or will get any more demand because of this. Just remember what your basic strux pack consists of - and you will know why this doesn't do anything for strux market.

5. Something other than a line... *faints* omg I'm so excited. Yes, as I wrote earlier, this will make people work the CE/firepower/HP/numbers angles to find the hax combinations. Most of the paying customers will lose their paid for armies to swarms of simple units in a matter of weeks. The game will return to inactivity and that will be the end of mass PvP.

You all can vote AYE for all I care, I just encourage you to think about some low-CE game-breaking setups for yourselves before voting instead of regurgitating meaningless genaralizations of others.

Of course people want to see simple and intermediate units used more in army PvP. What those people forget is that for the numbers we are talking about build cost is the same if not more than for a 120 unit Advanced army. CE is basically build cost. This doesn't change anything for the new players army unit cost-wise, just creates more barriers of entry in the way of trained crews and clicking skills on hundreds of units.

Facepalm time, seriously. Has anyone checked the numbers on build cost and power of these setups? Salvage cost is going up, all the other costs stay the same, PvP becomes a mess. Good luck.

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Slayer_666
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So... Has this been passed? Can we try it out? 1 week trial period?

Slayer
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Dark Leth
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Slayer_666 wrote:
So... Has this been passed? Can we try it out? 1 week trial period?

Slayer


There's no way for it to pass giving the current vote numbers.
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krisjaniz
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 6:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dark Leth wrote:
Slayer_666 wrote:
So... Has this been passed? Can we try it out? 1 week trial period?

Slayer


There's no way for it to pass giving the current vote numbers.


Only 3 votes needed at the moment to pass this. If you want this change, now would be the time to campaign! Walt and Slayer have voted Yes on this so only one all-powerful vote needed for the Yes camp.
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Slayer_666
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 3:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd like to see this on a trial period like stack attack being disabled, but at separate times.


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Trerro
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
1. It makes the expensive units NOT matter. Just look at the CE.


If the CE numbers are balanced, this should not be the case - a unit of twice the CE should have twice the overall power on the battlefield. While people will undoubtedly find units that are over- or underpowered under the CE limit system, that just means the CEs themselves need to be tweaked. That's not an argument against CE-based limits, just a warning that further tweaking will be necessary.

Quote:
2. Yes, what fun (facepalm).


Unconventional armies and strange tactics are part of the game, this is a strategy game after all. Tweaking mod loadouts and trying unusual tactics is the whole reason to have mods in the first place. If the goal was for every unit to only have 3 builds, then there would be 3 subtypes of each units instead of a flexible mod system.

Quote:
3. First, integration will be an disadvantage. People who actually pay for the game won't. Second, the rich with their 500+ BZ crews will gain an even bigger advantage than ever. Just count those +x*500 damage points per gun... Same goes for shields, armor, ammo...


How would I units be at a disadvantage? They get the same benefit they always have - breaking the mod limit of 4 to allow for unit builds that are otherwise impossible. They just won't get to break the *army* cap, making it a question of concentrated vs. spread power, and making you decide how to focus your army. Balance.

If the issue is that integration's power no longer reflects its cost, then integration can get a large adjustment downward in difficulty to compensate.

Any major game change is going to have side effects that have to be dealt with. That doesn't mean that we should be afraid of change, it simply means that we have to think such changes through.

As for the "500 doom probes with zerk" argument, those aren't going to have 50 HP, so someone's going to drop a lone Scrappy and auto-kill the entire army, in one turn, alone, through drop shock.

Quote:
4. It is stupid to think something like this might revive strux market. All who can pay money have already acquired a nice strux set of almost all the units in the game. Simples and intermediates are not the ones that are missing or will get any more demand because of this. Just remember what your basic strux pack consists of - and you will know why this doesn't do anything for strux market.


Believe it or not, not every player either puts either 2 grand into the game or not a penny. The problem is that with strux, those are currently the only options, as you can't trade. A system where $50-200 could get a player full build on a handful of favorite units is a system where a lot of players who don't currently touch the strux system would, and the result of the market coming alive could allow non-payers to get some strux too. This pushes us back towards a game for several hundred players instead of 30.

Quote:
5. Something other than a line... *faints* omg I'm so excited. Yes, as I wrote earlier, this will make people work the CE/firepower/HP/numbers angles to find the hax combinations. Most of the paying customers will lose their paid for armies to swarms of simple units in a matter of weeks. The game will return to inactivity and that will be the end of mass PvP.


"It changes the status quo", "It makes some current setups not good" and, "people who haven't changed their strategy in 2 years have to" are not reasons to avoid a change.

This exact argument was made when faction levels were changed, that it was going to invalidate a bunch of existing builds.

The claim that simples will win under this system just doesn't seem mathematically valid, in anything but brick vs brick (2 entire armies each entirely in one stack) combat, something I don't think should be encouraged in the first place. That said, if you're concerned about that, I would suggest a limit on stack attack, perhaps units beyond the 30th in a stack won't fire on the stack attack command. This would be a meaningful limit only for simples, and should thus solve the problem.

Quote:
I have 13 new players or so each month come in to auX I also have 13 or so go inactive each month.


CC was getting similar numbers at our peak. We've had a few stay, but it was because they liked CC and stayed with us to play *other games*. We have almost 0 active players without 2+ year marks.

A game that is flat out incapable of keeping newbies can only have its player count go one way. Down. Eventually down low enough that it dies, and that's exactly what we're seeing, a stagnated game that is slowly withering away.

The game needs to change if it's going to survive, and especially if it's going to get active again.
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[quote="trumpetguy"]And if you double-integrate a BAIII does it become a BAV?[/quote]

Ok... the intergalactic beer run may have been a bad idea. Whoops!
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krisjaniz
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the absence of a testing server, things like this should be tested on arenas before implementation. There's a suggestion about removing army limit on arenas that would provide the necessary testing grounds.

http://forum.mobrulestudios.com/viewtopic.php?t=15360

Vanoi points out in that thread that arenas like this would break the server. I think it is also a valid concern for this change as well.

When we have test results from arenas in, we can decide on such major changes.

CE is cost. Changing CE is not trivial. Let's test first to see if this is even viable.
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Dark Leth
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

krisjaniz wrote:
In the absence of a testing server, things like this should be tested on arenas before implementation. There's a suggestion about removing army limit on arenas that would provide the necessary testing grounds.

http://forum.mobrulestudios.com/viewtopic.php?t=15360

Vanoi points out in that thread that arenas like this would break the server. I think it is also a valid concern for this change as well.

When we have test results from arenas in, we can decide on such major changes.

CE is cost. Changing CE is not trivial. Let's test first to see if this is even viable.


This seems to be the levelheaded approach.
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Frizz
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I coded this i know, but I'm against this, this will only swap one problem for another. With CE limits, sure it might encourage usage of more CE "efficient" units, but then the costly high CE expensive units (ie. goons, wyvs) will be left with little to no purpose.
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Trerro
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

800 seems to be about the average CE of an advanced unit, which woul probably be about 1800 with 4 mods and a non-WH crew.

This would suggest CE limits of:
AO1 = 108k
TFC = 135k
SG = 216k
or maybe 110k/135k/215k to avoid weird numbers

If we do both limit types though, I would suggest more flexible limits, so the full spectrum of advanced units are encouraged. (Current limits with average CEs will favor mid-CE units - you won't have the CE to get enough gats down OR the unit limit to get enough tanks.)
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[quote="trumpetguy"]And if you double-integrate a BAIII does it become a BAV?[/quote]

Ok... the intergalactic beer run may have been a bad idea. Whoops!
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ParalyzeD
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I coded this i know, but I'm against this, this will only swap one problem for another. With CE limits, sure it might encourage usage of more CE "efficient" units, but then the costly high CE expensive units (ie. goons, wyvs) will be left with little to no purpose.
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