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#75 - [Tweak] Change Armylimit to Celimit (Rejected)
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Vanoi
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:40 pm    Post subject: #75 - [Tweak] Change Armylimit to Celimit (Rejected) Reply with quote

https://sourceforge.net/p/dropshock/tickets/75/

3 Ayes, 2 Nays... 3 have yet to vote.

The numbers for now are 130k for Ao1, 170 for TFC, and 210 for SG. Numbers are not an issue, it's easy to tweak.

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Last edited by Vanoi on Sat Sep 21, 2013 9:07 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Walterohdim
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I vote Yes on this as it is something I really support for the reasons in the suggestions forums. I really think this will even the playing field some between rich and poor players, and make entering large scale PvP easier.

Walterohdim
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Slayer_666
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yay
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krisjaniz
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Walterohdim wrote:
I vote Yes on this as it is something I really support for the reasons in the suggestions forums. I really think this will even the playing field some between rich and poor players, and make entering large scale PvP easier.

Walterohdim


Well, that's just one of my problems with it. Purely socialist agenda for Drop Shock. Why don't we redistribute command and ore from the wealthy among the poor while we are at it?

A totally creepy scenario for you guys:

A LE with War Hero and Death Lance or something is like 200CE, a fully modded army unit is at least 10x that both in CE and build cost. Let's attack a node with 1k LEs. 20 base turrets can only target 20 LEs a turn, they could one-turn maybe 5 of those in a single shot but they can't cause they can't target more than one. So 20 LEs per turn die. With Evar they deal 25dmg at least at range 4-5 every other turn. So by the time we get to killing the base, we have lost 40 LEs and still have 960 LEs or 24k firepower at our disposal. 24k firepower is twice the firepower of your average 120 unit Claymore army. Think about that for a second. 1k units, just one gun on each but you can't kill more than 120 of those every turn with a 120 unit army, stack-attack or no stack-attack. Are we facing a 120 unit army? Oh, wait, with a CE limit of a SG we can drop only 100 Claymores against 1k LEs, those 1k LEs can 1-turn those Claymores, the Claymores can't 1-turn 1k LEs for the life of them. Oh, let's drop Wyverns! Our lovely integrated Wyverns that cost a fortune now, SG can drop only 48 of them. What? Yes, 48. Can 1k LEs 1-turn 48 integrated Wyverns? If we find a way to target them, sure.

Can we face two advanced unit armies with those LEs? Of course, even if we let LEs die for a couple turns, we still have considerably more firepower we can dish out a single turn than most any decent army.

It's long, I know. And I haven't even REALLY thought about this CE limit thing. Truth is, numbers do mean everything. Unless you can have a unit with 16 guns and single-target every gun. It will be fun for a week but the quality of our PvP will suffer, the quality of salvage will suffer...

And how does this solve the problem of the rich? I have thousands of decent crews in storage. The "poor" do not. Do your own math.

NAY until somebody can prove me wrong.

EDIT: And SYM+ just became a GODLY unit! Muahahahaha Laughing
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Dark Leth
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

krisjaniz wrote:
Walterohdim wrote:
I vote Yes on this as it is something I really support for the reasons in the suggestions forums. I really think this will even the playing field some between rich and poor players, and make entering large scale PvP easier.

Walterohdim


Well, that's just one of my problems with it. Purely socialist agenda for Drop Shock. Why don't we redistribute command and ore from the wealthy among the poor while we are at it?

A totally creepy scenario for you guys:

A LE with War Hero and Death Lance or something is like 200CE, a fully modded army unit is at least 10x that both in CE and build cost. Let's attack a node with 1k LEs. 20 base turrets can only target 20 LEs a turn, they could one-turn maybe 5 of those in a single shot but they can't cause they can't target more than one. So 20 LEs per turn die. With Evar they deal 25dmg at least at range 4-5 every other turn. So by the time we get to killing the base, we have lost 40 LEs and still have 960 LEs or 24k firepower at our disposal. 24k firepower is twice the firepower of your average 120 unit Claymore army. Think about that for a second. 1k units, just one gun on each but you can't kill more than 120 of those every turn with a 120 unit army, stack-attack or no stack-attack. Are we facing a 120 unit army? Oh, wait, with a CE limit of a SG we can drop only 100 Claymores against 1k LEs, those 1k LEs can 1-turn those Claymores, the Claymores can't 1-turn 1k LEs for the life of them. Oh, let's drop Wyverns! Our lovely integrated Wyverns that cost a fortune now, SG can drop only 48 of them. What? Yes, 48. Can 1k LEs 1-turn 48 integrated Wyverns? If we find a way to target them, sure.

Can we face two advanced unit armies with those LEs? Of course, even if we let LEs die for a couple turns, we still have considerably more firepower we can dish out a single turn than most any decent army.

It's long, I know. And I haven't even REALLY thought about this CE limit thing. Truth is, numbers do mean everything. Unless you can have a unit with 16 guns and single-target every gun. It will be fun for a week but the quality of our PvP will suffer, the quality of salvage will suffer...

And how does this solve the problem of the rich? I have thousands of decent crews in storage. The "poor" do not. Do your own math.

NAY until somebody can prove me wrong.

EDIT: And SYM+ just became a GODLY unit! Muahahahaha Laughing


CE only possibly works, IMO, if stack attack is completely removed. That makes the above scenario much more unlikely.
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Walterohdim
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So what I am hearing is that CE limits instead of army limits, being acceptable is only if stack attack is removed? I don't like stack attack either by the way. I really think this will open up a lot of interesting trial and error trying to see how many units one person can control. I have to admit the salvage will suffer, I don't really see that as a problem though as currently only a very few can really afford to PvP on any sort of scale.

Also the rich poor issue is huge in any online game, as currently as a newer player it takes just plain way to long to build up resources to be competitive. This creates a HUGE gap between the old and new players and the casual or hardcore player that causes the new and more casual players to go find a new game. I really want to find some ways with the game mechanics to not overcome this gap as it would neither be possible or desireable, but to narrow it some so that new players will actually stick around long enough to make our game a better place to be.

Walterohdim
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krisjaniz
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Walterohdim wrote:
So what I am hearing is that CE limits instead of army limits, being acceptable is only if stack attack is removed?


Stack attack is only a small part of the story. CE is the "cost" of a unit, not an indicator if its suitability for any given task. With fixed army unit count limits we can know that the worst that can happen to us is somebody with 120 6slot units. With a fixed CE limit not so much.

We are going to be living on the fringes after an update like this for months. The game will be about finding the best HAX setups CE-wise. PC could very well spend all the time balancing CE - which isn't a small feat. Those CE changes would most probably have a huge impact on building - meaning nobody will ever know what the premods for what are or what is the current build cost of something.

I could be wrong on these doomsday scenarios but that's just the way it always happens, isn't it? Besides, a CE limit is more confusing for new players and that's something we want to minimize, no?
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm going to post here as I want the council to ponder this before I suggest it...

What about combining the CE/Unit limits? Say the same unit limits/higher/lower than now, coupled with a CE limit. You have to stay under both?


It adds more complexity to the game, but this would fix krisjaniz's (and personally mine) issues

~Rose
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krisjaniz
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RoseThorn wrote:
I'm going to post here as I want the council to ponder this before I suggest it...

What about combining the CE/Unit limits? Say the same unit limits/higher/lower than now, coupled with a CE limit. You have to stay under both?


It adds more complexity to the game, but this would fix krisjaniz's (and personally mine) issues

~Rose


People have an issue with other people dropping OP II units. That's where this CE limit suggestion comes from. Nobody is looking at the cost - and benefit to the game - of people dropping huge badass armies. Look at the Tear market, look at the PU market, command market, ore market, crew market - the game is picking up just because we have a few fights with a lot of and/or I/II units. The planets are alive with the sound of music.

We don't need to prohibit people from spending money. It's just part of the fun. Don't have the funds to drop 120 units? Join up with other people who can drop 20 and gang on the big army droppers. Do Zedus, have fun on Konu, battle it out with Fanatics on Dominus. Infernus being the realm of the huge army fights is not a bad thing for the game. It makes the markets go overdrive and adds another - higher - level to play on.
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Dark Leth
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

krisjaniz wrote:
RoseThorn wrote:
I'm going to post here as I want the council to ponder this before I suggest it...

What about combining the CE/Unit limits? Say the same unit limits/higher/lower than now, coupled with a CE limit. You have to stay under both?


It adds more complexity to the game, but this would fix krisjaniz's (and personally mine) issues

~Rose


People have an issue with other people dropping OP II units. That's where this CE limit suggestion comes from. Nobody is looking at the cost - and benefit to the game - of people dropping huge badass armies. Look at the Tear market, look at the PU market, command market, ore market, crew market - the game is picking up just because we have a few fights with a lot of and/or I/II units. The planets are alive with the sound of music.

We don't need to prohibit people from spending money. It's just part of the fun. Don't have the funds to drop 120 units? Join up with other people who can drop 20 and gang on the big army droppers. Do Zedus, have fun on Konu, battle it out with Fanatics on Dominus. Infernus being the realm of the huge army fights is not a bad thing for the game. It makes the markets go overdrive and adds another - higher - level to play on.


Bingo.
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Walterohdim
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Someone with more skills then me needs to add some cool(troll) graphics of this idea going down in flames. I wonder though does the same argument apply in the first place to the army unit limits? As I read Kris on this it gets me to thinking about Thunder's argument against the unit limits in the first place. (possibly agreeing about anything with Thunder scars the crap out of me)

I am really wondering if we should remove stack attack, and the army limits at the same time? I kind of think this would get to my same goal of democratizing what gets dropped, without making the game a money game. I know that the army trees would then need new stuff, but I bet we could come up with some.

Walterohdim
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krisjaniz
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Walterohdim wrote:
Someone with more skills then me needs to add some cool(troll) graphics of this idea going down in flames. I wonder though does the same argument apply in the first place to the army unit limits? As I read Kris on this it gets me to thinking about Thunder's argument against the unit limits in the first place. (possibly agreeing about anything with Thunder scars the crap out of me)

I am really wondering if we should remove stack attack, and the army limits at the same time? I kind of think this would get to my same goal of democratizing what gets dropped, without making the game a money game. I know that the army trees would then need new stuff, but I bet we could come up with some.

Walterohdim


Stack attack is irrelevant here.
What you would have to do with limitless armies is nonlinear drop cost. Let's say until 200kCE your drop cost is a function of CE, after that it's a function of CE*(CE/200k).
That way you can drop it all and the kitchen sink if you want but at great expense.

Drop cost discount for SG is the weirdest thing in the game. Being able to overdrop everybody and pay less for it makes me ROFL.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is there some sort of Drop limit cost etc... reform that you guys would accept that would stop II 120 unit armies from just being the I win button that they are now? The problem with this is that if you don't have one people don't drop. Also it really isn't realistic to think that enough people are going to drop together to defeat these types of armies. I really see this as keeping a lot of mid level players out of Army PvP. There is a lot of support for CE limit instead of unit limit in the community. It seems the only ones against it are the owners of II armies. I really see this as one of those things were people need to look past their own narrow self interest. Also your contempt of lesser salvage I think really shows were this argument against this comes from. If we are going to get new players we need to be a game that new players can play. Right now we are not. I have 13 new players or so each month come in to auX I also have 13 or so go inactive each month. We are not keeping new players. They get mad because they can't compete without spending lots of money. We really need to think of if we want this to continue to be the money grind game that it is, or if we want to reform it so people can play with more modest contributions of money and time. I really think replacing unit limits with CE limits does this as it makes dropping cheaper units an option.

Walterohdim


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Upsides to doing this:

1. It makes (almost) all units matter. Currently, the game says a 400 CE tank is exactly equal to a 1200 CE Wyv. The result is that every fight is the same 7-8 units, because nothing else makes sense. With the new system, weaker units en masse become viable, and the super powerful units like Wyvs represent a meaningful tradeoff. In time, it could be possible to get virtually every unit represented on the battlefield, because you choose based on what fits your strategy, not simply the strongest thing you can shove into an army slot.

2. It makes mod choices matter. Currently, most units use the same 2-3 loadouts 90% of the time - and why wouldn't they? When you're dropping on CE, however, using an intentionally sub-optimal build becomes strategically interesting... taking that hit to shielding or losing that extra gun in favor of getting another 10 units down may be just what you need to win.

3. It encourages more people to actually use armies. Most players are able to get an army build through effort or cash. Most are not if integration is required to matter. While Ied units will still have an advantage with the CE system, it will be a sane one.

4. It could actually revive the strux market. It's pretty hard to trade when everyone wants the same small list of units... but switch to a system where instead of 7-8 superior choices, it's deploy what best fits your style, and suddenly you just may want to trade around.

5. It encourages all kinds of mixing and matching, instead of a giant brick or a set of identical squads. We could even see a successful deployment of a formation other than a line!


I quoted Trerro for the above. Also Corclark is highly supportive of this idea. I really think we need to think beyond our biases and think about the game as a whole not just our favorite parts or what makes it best for me.
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krisjaniz
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Walterohdim wrote:
Is there some sort of Drop limit cost etc... reform that you guys would accept that would stop II 120 unit armies from just being the I win button that they are now? The problem with this is that if you don't have one people don't drop. Also it really isn't realistic to think that enough people are going to drop together to defeat these types of armies. I really see this as keeping a lot of mid level players out of Army PvP. There is a lot of support for CE limit instead of unit limit in the community. It seems the only ones against it are the owners of II armies. I really see this as one of those things were people need to look past their own narrow self interest. Also your contempt of lesser salvage I think really shows were this argument against this comes from. If we are going to get new players we need to be a game that new players can play. Right now we are not. I have 13 new players or so each month come in to auX I also have 13 or so go inactive each month. We are not keeping new players. They get mad because they can't compete without spending lots of money. We really need to think of if we want this to continue to be the money grind game that it is, or if we want to reform it so people can play with more modest contributions of money and time. I really think replacing unit limits with CE limits does this as it makes dropping cheaper units an option.

Walterohdim


Walterohdim


No, this makes dropping an SJM+ with cheaper units a necessity. The expensive units with their current CE just don't stand a chance. That's what my outrage is about. I don't drop II armies AT ALL. NEVER EVER. I don't drop 120 unit I armies. EVER. I routinely rally people to gang on these droppers of 120 II units.

Your newbies can farm Esika to their heart's content. They can afford armies we can't. But they don't. And that's not a problem of large-scale Infernus PvP.

What large scale Infernus PvP does is help these new players get paid. Help them gather resources, sell their hard-earned ore at good prices. Don't you see it? When we huge army droppers take a vacation, command price drops to 150cr per. Tbs price skyrockets because nobody buys tbs anymore. You must be blind not to see what a couple huge battles do to the market.

And the only ones against the CE limit are the people who don't want the fun of facing 500 haxx simples.
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