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#45 - Cluster/Gyro Nerf ver. 3 (REJECTED-REOPENED)
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Vanoi
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Keeping GR at anything greater than 1 range is pushing it.
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ChaosKiNg3
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well we have a few things to think about. What we do not want to do is nerf Gyro Rounds to the point that no one will want use them. We also need to remember that they are bloody expensive and time consuming to build. I am not a fan of cost directly relating to power as that tends to shut a lot of the player base out.

Here is something we could do but it would also be getting rid of misfire in general (which I am cool with since misfire A) Does not even work and B) Is a mechanic that will simply cause some unbalanced rage when it is made to work)

Balance Ammo: +3 Range, -2 Damage

Sup Ammo: +2 Range

Gyro Rounds: +1 Range, +2 Damage

Then we reduce cost and requirements for Gyro Rounds. That gives a nice list of trade off for ballistics to choose from.

Gyro Longgun seems fine to me.

Any thoughts on the Cluster Missiles? I personally don't like them as they are an expensive overpowered mod that is 100% required on any sort of missile set-up. At the same time with the way missiles were nerfed (to accommodate CMissiles it seems) we cannot really nerf them =/
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Dark Leth
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's an idea too - Gyro could give a limited acti that extends range again but at a very high misfire cost.

EDIT: I still support CK3's general listic tree, however.
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Vanoi
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's my final conclusion, I will submit and change to approve if we are in agreement.

Misstarget will be completely redo into a hard percentage to miss (even on a Guaranteed).

Gyrojet will recieve 2 Range, 2 Damage and 20% to Misstarget

Cluster will recieve 1 Range, 2 Damage and 20% to Misstarget
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ChaosKiNg3
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If we cannot do my idea this works for me, still favor mine though Laughing
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Dark Leth
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vanoi wrote:
Here's my final conclusion, I will submit and change to approve if we are in agreement.

Misstarget will be completely redo into a hard percentage to miss (even on a Guaranteed).

Gyrojet will recieve 2 Range, 2 Damage and 20% to Misstarget

Cluster will recieve 1 Range, 2 Damage and 20% to Misstarget


I prefer CK3's arrangement to slightly buff superior ammo alongside this. Otherwise, I'm in support.
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Slayer_666
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So based off of the above the suggestion we are pushing is:

Misstarget will be completely redo into a hard percentage to miss (even on a Guaranteed).

Gyrojet will recieve 2 Range, 2 Damage and 20% to Misstarget

Cluster will recieve 1 Range, 2 Damage and 20% to Misstarge

Superior Ammo will only give +2 range, no longer affect ammo

Balanced ammo becomes + 3 range +2 danage


Slayer
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Thunder_lt
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 3:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Those two mods cant be intermediate, they should be elite, if you remove them from I'ing they are good as they are now. otherwise they will be as used as used toilet paper.
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maXDooom
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 4:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yea but if we re-add mstgt the only winner is the guy who uses stack attack
and those who manually target would mostly wasting their time, so i think
if we add mstgt and keep the stats it would be ballanced
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krisjaniz
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 4:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shoot me now.
A whole discussion of trying to balance things ends in this thought-provoking post:

Slayer_666 wrote:

Balanced ammo becomes + 3 range +2 danage
Slayer


Everybody agrees that Gyrojet Rounds are OP in their current incarnation, so let's give the same effect to a simple mod. Rolling Eyes
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krisjaniz
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 5:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Slayer_666 wrote:
So based off of the above the suggestion we are pushing is:

Misstarget will be completely redo into a hard percentage to miss (even on a Guaranteed).

Gyrojet will recieve 2 Range, 2 Damage and 20% to Misstarget

Cluster will recieve 1 Range, 2 Damage and 20% to Misstarge

Superior Ammo will only give +2 range, no longer affect ammo

Balanced ammo becomes + 3 range +2 danage
Slayer


If we forget about the weird Balanced Ammo update suggestion, here's my take on it all:

1. Gyrojet at 2 damage and 20% to miss will make it add damage to anything below 8 base damage and deal less damage to anything that's above that treshold.
That means added damage with:
    Avenger (4 range)
    Bandit Ballistic (3 range)
    Carnivore (3 range)
    Deathdealer (5 range)
    Scatterfire (3 range)
    Tri-gun (3 range)
    Wartech Gatling Repeater (4 range)

With these mods I don't see any drawbacks to having Gyrojet at +3 range, you still can't get 10 range ballistics with most of these even if you use two range-increasing mods.

That's my argument for keeping the +3 range on Gyrojet if there is a 20% complete miss.

2. The same goes for Cluster Missiles. We are creating an extremely expensive alternative to Smart Warheads that gives damage increase on the following weapons:
    Hailfire (3 range)
    Incursion (3 range)
    Onslaught (4 range)
    Triad (2 range)
    Wraith (2 range)

At least to me that seems way too expensive. Keeping damage for Cluster Missiles at +3 would nicely balance the cost vs. gain while still not giving you added damage when using the higher damage missile mods like Zeus.

3. Dropping ammo reduction on SGA would be nice, it doesn't change all that much and just polishes the mod up a bit.

4. Balanced Ammo - as I wrote earlier - what the hell are you thinking?

In short:
Gyrojet +3 range +2 damage 20% to miss;
Cluster +1 range +3 damage 20% to miss;
SGA +2 range;
Balanced Ammo - don't implement any changes.

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corclaork
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

krisjaniz wrote:
Slayer_666 wrote:
So based off of the above the suggestion we are pushing is:

Misstarget will be completely redo into a hard percentage to miss (even on a Guaranteed).

Gyrojet will recieve 2 Range, 2 Damage and 20% to Misstarget

Cluster will recieve 1 Range, 2 Damage and 20% to Misstarge

Superior Ammo will only give +2 range, no longer affect ammo

Balanced ammo becomes + 3 range +2 danage
Slayer


If we forget about the weird Balanced Ammo update suggestion, here's my take on it all:

1. Gyrojet at 2 damage and 20% to miss will make it add damage to anything below 8 base damage and deal less damage to anything that's above that treshold.
That means added damage with:
    Avenger (4 range)
    Bandit Ballistic (3 range)
    Carnivore (3 range)
    Deathdealer (5 range)
    Scatterfire (3 range)
    Tri-gun (3 range)
    Wartech Gatling Repeater (4 range)

With these mods I don't see any drawbacks to having Gyrojet at +3 range, you still can't get 10 range ballistics with most of these even if you use two range-increasing mods.

That's my argument for keeping the +3 range on Gyrojet if there is a 20% complete miss.

2. The same goes for Cluster Missiles. We are creating an extremely expensive alternative to Smart Warheads that gives damage increase on the following weapons:
    Hailfire (3 range)
    Incursion (3 range)
    Onslaught (4 range)
    Triad (2 range)
    Wraith (2 range)

At least to me that seems way too expensive. Keeping damage for Cluster Missiles at +3 would nicely balance the cost vs. gain while still not giving you added damage when using the higher damage missile mods like Zeus.

3. Dropping ammo reduction on SGA would be nice, it doesn't change all that much and just polishes the mod up a bit.

4. Balanced Ammo - as I wrote earlier - what the hell are you thinking?

In short:
Gyrojet +3 range +2 damage 20% to miss;
Cluster +1 range +3 damage 20% to miss;
SGA +2 range;
Balanced Ammo - don't implement any changes.


the main thing that we need to figure out is if we want to make 10 rng balistics a thing of the past or keep it.... if we want to keep it missles need extended damage but if we remove most 10 range balistics (like it was in the past before gyro/cluster) then missles dont need the extra damage. these ever escalating increases can get out of hand very quickly and it just leaves more stuff that wont ever get used. that being said i think we should keep the stats the same until we can fully come to grasp jsut how much of a drawback miss target will be because in the end over nerfing somthing IMO is way more destructive that under nerfing it.

cor
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Thunder_lt
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i am strongly reccoment to change class of those two mods, sga is intermediate and it is pre mod for gyro how can it be same class? same with clusters it has intermediate pre req. should be elite and problems solved. increase ce modifier and leave other stats as it is. no other solution could bring this balance except this one. Nerfing is easiest way but Integrating these made them OPED.
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krisjaniz
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

corclaork wrote:
the main thing that we need to figure out is if we want to make 10 rng balistics a thing of the past or keep it.... if we want to keep it missles need extended damage but if we remove most 10 range balistics (like it was in the past before gyro/cluster) then missles dont need the extra damage. these ever escalating increases can get out of hand very quickly and it just leaves more stuff that wont ever get used. that being said i think we should keep the stats the same until we can fully come to grasp jsut how much of a drawback miss target will be because in the end over nerfing somthing IMO is way more destructive that under nerfing it.

cor


So the problem according to you is that we can use both balanced and gyro to achieve 10range on the 4 range units/mods? Cause if it's not, we already have balanced and SGA giving +5 range.

As stated earlier, with the proposed guaranteed miss, Gyrojet becomes kind of a Balanced Ammo mod for most mod combinations. Additionally it still can't be used with mods/units that already have some effect.
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ChaosKiNg3
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was personally in favor of getting rid os MisTarget, reducing the build cost on Gyro/Cluster and simply slotting them into existing ammo mod strengths.

Quote:
Balance Ammo: +3 Range, -2 Damage

Sup Ammo: +2 Range

Gyro Rounds: +1 Range, +2 Damage

Condensed Neutron Ammunition, +3 Damage, no Damage Reduction

Explosive Ammo: -1 Range, +5 Damage


I don't think the issue is so much that Ballistics are reaching 10 range but that they are doing it with +2 damage rather than the -2 they had in the past, that is a 4 damage spread and when using a Gat can add up fast. Also with IIing coming into play it becomes fairly easy to add a Sup Ammo as a 5th mod giving almost every single ballistic unit 10 range easily. There is no way to counter that with missiles who tend to be, for the most part, low health.

The entire triangle is just messed up at the moment. I see the fix in undoing some of the nerfs that have happened over the past 2~ years as we had pretty awesome balance in the past. IIing throws a lot out of wack but the least we could do is try to make the rest pretty balanced.

Anyone who says Gyro/Cluster are fine as is is simply wrong through the obviousness of them taking the next 2 best mods, combining them then making them stronger. MisTarget however seems like a mistake on a fundemental level as we already have to-hit chances, it just makes no sense as you can view it as a 20% reduction in fire power so it is almost break even. By that I mean the idea of a flat to-hit rate, the original MisFire seems even worse to me.

Missiles are currently facing nothing like the issues ballistics are. Those are a seperate balancing problem that needs to be thought out.


Last edited by ChaosKiNg3 on Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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