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Faction Planet Proposal
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Frizz
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Joined: 10 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 12:11 pm    Post subject: Faction Planet Proposal Reply with quote

To hedge the currently problem of a faction-base-free Faction Planet I'd like to get some feedback for the following idea:

If a faction base is undeployed, that faction loses 50% of the faction points they've earned on the planet.

(Also, I'm considering splitting those faction points among any factions that currently have bases on the planet).

The intent is to make it so that factions which do small bases drops just to get over the 100fp limit will have to work harder to-do so, without removing that strategy entirely.

Please discuss =)
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Mallen
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shocked Ooooh! I like!

But does is this 50% of FP lost that has been gained in total, or in that particular base deployment.

Only if it was the former, by deploying to try and score some 'extra' FP's, even if they weren't necessary. Could end up with that being out of contest for the command, should something go wrong.
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Jake.Radden
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't really like it, but that's most likely because whenever my fledgling faction deploys to faction planet, we always have a caretaker around, and if either things go south or noone can be there we undeploy. I think that this would really hurt new factions; and further cement the complete dominance of Guild of Light. (And Affliction, but he never really plays any more.)
-Jake
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Jin
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

this will be hard for lota of newbie faction to get fp so they can support some shared construx

if u think gettin over 100 fp for the share of the cmd is teh problem maybe u can change teh reward to somethign liek this

after u get 100 fp u start gettign 1 cmd per fp or seomthing
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yaroslavvb
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To be honest, I haven't seen any factions deploy to get 100 FP's and then undeploy. Only beginner factions need FP's at this point really, and more experienced factions are after XP. So right now what factions like GoL and Mercenary do is "drop HQ, drop forces, evac HQ right away". This makes it easy to attack, but hard to retaliate.

Because experienced factions like Mercenary and GoL don't need FP (since they don't use shared slots), current setup means they have little to lose, but a lot to gain by this strategy

I think something should be changed to shift the balance away from experienced factions, such as increasing command cost of base evac, or removing that option altogether.
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Dreamhand
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Location: Colorado, USA

PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been a strong advocate for TinyWarz since I started playing. Itís simplicity and diversity (in terms of strategy, unit composition, etc) make it one of the most appealing online games in my experience.

That said, I must ask again... why make it harder to secure FPs? Why limit the game instead of expanding it? Why not make FPs DO more and make them a desirable resource rather than a much needed diversion from the tedium of deploy/fight/mine/deploy?

Granted, expanding the game is much more labor intensive than limiting the existing structure, but what is the real objection here? Smaller factions are scoring FPs and a slice of the command prize and then undeploying before the big dogs tear them to shreds? Well, if I had to guess, Iíd say the big dogs are whining that they canít flex their superiority in every facet of the game. To which my response is: SUCK IT UP and look at the big picture!

As cool as TinyWarz is, there is one major shortcoming to fostering long-term interest in its players... a diversity of short and long-term goals (i.e. things to strive for).

Our primary objectives in the game (as I perceive them, anyway) are:
> Battle Victories
> Levels (and with them, commands/abilities)
> Faction Points

Secondary objectives (subject to personal choice and preference) are:
> Making credits on the market
> Scoring as many construx as possible

And thatís it.

Battle Victories on Training Planet get old by 10th level. The challenge is gone, so you deploy to Relic and get you butt kicked for another 10 levels sneaking on when no one else is on so the big dogs donít tear you up.

Scoring levels takes much longer (as it should) as you progress. SOMETHING better sustain your interest in that gap between 23rd and 24th level.

Getting Faction Points is limited to factions interested in investing substantial command and time in securing them.

And the Market game is isolated to those with the patience and playing style to enjoy it, and thereís only so many Construx you can get.

So NOW we want to make getting FPs MORE expensive and MORE costly in time and resources?

I disagree with the focus of the opinions expressed that newbie factions are the only factions that need FPs. ANY faction that wants to share construx with their members needs FPs. More FPs means more shared construx which makes the faction more appealing to prospective members... unless youíre joining for status and prestige on the battle field. THEN you join a big powerful faction that (apparently) doesnít NEED FPs (I guess they donít share construx).

My bottom line opinion... do not limit access to FPs. Make FPs worth more than just shared strux, thus increasing demand, and increasing traffic on Faction Planets. If we (as in small factions) are able to sneak on and sneak off for FOUR HOURS (which is roughly how long it takes to score 10 beacons in my experience), then thereís not that much traffic on Faction Planet. If there WAS it wouldnít happen. If you want a suggestion for how to make FPs more valuable, look at my numerous posts on the subject. Granted, they arenít perfect, but theyíre a starting point.

And Lastly, I resent the fact that this proposal is even on the board. The ONLY purpose it serves is to keep the Big Dogs big and us Little Dogs little. I never considered that the nature of TinyWarz... if I did, I wouldnít play. We all have enough of that BS in the real world. I like the game because everyone has a chance to succeed and excel. I think we need MORE of those opportunities to have the thrill of meaningful achievement in a game, not yet another demonstration of the rules changing to favor the wealthier and more powerful players to keep them wealthy and powerful.

I advocate changing the game to reinforce itís strengths, not exploit its limitations.
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glexana
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well said, I would like to see FP's become a more viable resource rather than a more difficult to aquire one.

*wonders if he used viable in the correct context*
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Walterohdim
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 6:25 pm    Post subject: Faction planet changes Reply with quote

I totally agree with Dreamhand. I think this would make deploying to faction even less atractive. I also agree that Fps need to be able to be used for more then just slots. I also think shared slots need to be cheaper so that more factions will make use of them. I think they should be able to be redeemed for ore, or tbs, or credits.


I think one thing that might help would be to make undeploy take longer on faction base so you had to fight it out for more turns. Also increasing the xp for killing buildings would make attacking bases a more profitable venture.
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JackOfBlades
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Joined: 26 Jun 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, Making it already harder then it is doesn't seem like a very good pay off... Also what happens when you have one faction that just whores off of all the planets? The stronger get stronger and the weaker get weaker and eventually impossible to make weaker. One faction will be far better then the others and have all the FPS. Also the extreme competition then will make these players on here much more aggresive and mean towards each other... For example I can start about a 7 hour arguement by saying, "It's soccer, not football." or "Rugby is the little sibling of American football" Haha we already fight over that nonsense.

I say don't do it!
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alamat
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Joined: 13 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with dreamhand and jackofblades.

maybe put more use for faction points and putting other things to do in the planet other than collecting beacon(which is sometimes boring and less rewarding coz a base drop cost is 100-300 or more command) and destroying other faction/alien base(which is new faction or low level players can't do).

how about putting a reseach facility in the center of the faction planet that players/faction can take control and depend it. then the faction who control/defended it till the planet goes to horizon will get a construx set.
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h3llzangel
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I realy like the idea of making the Fp's go for something like command, ore, and credits. Not in a way that the leader of the faction to use to ther advantage alone but so that the faction market can be more dependable, most factions ive been in have had a market but everything is sold for way to much and they buy for less.

There are to many ideas floating aorund out there for faction but they way it is know is still more toawards the more experienced players. maby make another faction planet that has less fp reward than the bigger one so that the less exp'd factions can get Fp's but not have to worry as much for the "big dogs"

I dont realy know but thats my idea hopes u guys likes it ^^
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glexana
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

and what is to keep these supposed "big" "dogs" from occasionally dropping a base on the lesser faction planet and clearing out all the smaller factions?
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h3llzangel
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good point, Maby have a fp limit to the smaller faction planet like 2k fp and u cant deploy making the "big dogs" have to deploy to the biger planet
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SilentBob3rd
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

***WARNING - This is a bit of a long read.***

On the point of increasing the difficulty of gaining Faction Points, I have to say that I agree with Dream - part of the staying power of any game is the concept of "replayability" or "returnability" (if that's a word ^_^).

People who lack a cohesive goal/reward structure will not likely remain part of a sustainable player/customer base. We play games for the accomplishment. Difficult games are respected and enjoyed so long as the frustration built into the learning curve does not outweigh the potential satisfaction of simply WINNING.

Increasing the difficulty of gathering faction points will only make it more difficult for the young and untested; those players with long tenure in the game and virtually unlimited funding will not even notice the difference.

....

Now, to lay the ship over on the port tack, there is a secondary issue within this discussion which is being ignored - Bases. The other side of Frizz's point is that he wants to increase the use of the base technology we have available, and the competition and gameplay which revolves around base-storming. Considering that most of us rarely deploy personal bases (what's the point, except for a little extra ore), and most Faction bases consist of only the bare minumum for earning FPs, I can see how the implementation of all that base tech must seem a little disappointing to our game master.

I don't, however, think that making FPs harder to get, or forcing the necessity of base deployment and defense is going to encourage increased usage; most players opions on bases in general is unfavorable, and a big part of the problem is logistical. Many of us started out thinking that, if we had some kind of uber base design, with enough turrets to make mincemeat out of ANYTHING that was foolish enough to approach, that we could drop on Faction or Relic and RULE THE WORLD.

Shortly thereafter, once we had burned through about 600 CMD in drop fees and emergency evacuations, it became disturbingly obvious that a determined opponent with a small army of long-range units could annihilate a fortune in base facilities with minimal losses. The current trend of using minimal or no base facilities at all is an act of self defense. Buildings are simply too easy to destroy - leave them alone for five seconds, and someone with a little perseverance and a moderate amount of firepower will be salvaging your hard-earned hardware and be home in time for tea and biscuits.

"Well, pay better attention to them then!" could be the response here. Truly, a base that's monitored is much harder to overrun. But for a personal base that means putting most or all of your attention towards manning your turrets and little to NONE of your effort towards exploring, mining, relic hunting, or PvPing. Everything has to come to you.

For a Faction base, this concern is of a lesser order because your turrets are all on full-auto, and you can have ANY faction member of paid status who has Base access mind it and evac it if necessary. But that still won't deter someone with some lead to throw and some time to kill, and many young factions simply don't HAVE someone active at all times to look after your investment.

....

I'm gonna take a shot at looking at the "Big Picture" here, myself. The root of the base issue comes, I think, from the fact that TW is an environment more conducive to the "slow build"; huge armies with their monolithic bases are NOT a project for one login during lunch break. However, I think we as a playerbase have lost sight of the fact that "Tinywarz was not built in a day."

I'm going to make some conjectures here, based on what I've read on the forums, and a little bit of semi-educated guessing.

Back when things first went live, and before the biggeest of the big and the baddest of the bad rose to power, players had to fight tooth and nail to somehow get the resources and plans necessary to build their first Hellbore, and it really MEANT something once they DID have it. Now the best units in the game are basically a dime a dozen to the old players, and while they're also a lot easier to get for the young'uns too, they can't afford to have and maintain tens or hundreds of them, with all the mods and crews required, and so are still vastly overpowered.

So the new players HAVE to somehow advance as fast and completely as possible, simply to be competitive. And that means a LOT of resources spent on bots, tanks, mods, and crews, and very little left over to build a big base, then lose it, then build it again. That also means that few players are willing to contribute their personal wealth to the Faction vaults, so that the Faction Base can be built, deployed to earn FPs, lost, and built again. Why should they?

....

It all comes back to goals in the end, I guess.

I think there is a vision where we constantly have factions down on Hadeas or Hellion, chewing away at eachother in a great, dramatic, endless struggle for every beacon, with dead bots and crumbling buildings littering the cratered surface from horizon to horizon. That's all fine and good. But no one wants to take that grand army which is the end product of all their toil, drop it down with a hellishly expensive base, then throw it against another force, presumably losing everything, and have to start over. In such a circumstance, many players would rather quit the game than settle back to rebuild, and try again. What would be the point?

There's no grand ending. No reward for their heroic sacrifice. No bragging rights in the world at large allowing them to sit with their grandkids and say, "Yeah, I was there for the Great Uprising on Hadeas in '67..."

Hell, there's nothing really to show for it even if they WIN.

So, I don't think that our problem here is one of bases, or of the difficulty of gaining faction points and what to spend them on, or big factions, or little factions, or who ate little Timmy's favorite candy bar he was saving.

The question we must ask is: How can the game be expanded upon to give the playerbase enough incentive to WANT to spend hours upon hours of their lives mining, building, killing, dying, and moving forward, just to get that gigantic uber-army built, watch it get destroyed, and then COME BACK FOR MORE?
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Duffman
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that this (losing 50% fp) should only apply to Emergency Evac, and change Request Dropship time to 15 turns.
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