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CE Re-Balancing

 
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Frizz
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Joined: 10 Jun 2005
Posts: 3814

PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 12:53 pm    Post subject: CE Re-Balancing Reply with quote

In thinking over the Mod Slots changes for Simple / Intermediate / Advanced units I've realized the problem comes from trying to balance the following:

Advanced units are supposed to be the most efficient killers on a battlefield. Simple units (ie. Super hogs) that attempt to attack them should be swattable like flies (in a battle with equal level players) in a comparable CE fight.

The reality is it doesn't work like this.

It's much more efficient to drop Advanced Mods on a Simple unit: because the cost is less when you put a 1.2 CE Modifier on a 200 CE unit (40 CE gain, no additional Command to drop) ... than when you put the same mod on an Advanced unit which is around 1,000 CE (200 CE gain, 2 Additional Command to drop). On top of that, the Simple unit that gets an Advanced mods receives a huge bump in killing power compared to the Advanced unit that receives the same mod (ie. the Simple unit can now take on lots of stuff it couldn't previously, while the Advanced unit is now just a hair more lethal) ... BUT the cost is backwards ... the Simple units gets a tiny bump in cost, the Advanced unit gets a huge one.

Before this Mod changes were being discussed this really wasn't fixable, because there need to be some way to balance Advanced mods being on Simple and Advanced Units.

However, if Mods are limited to the Complexity of their unit (ie. Simple units can only use Simple mods), there's a solution:

Invert Mod CE Modifiers

How does this work? Currently, the best Advanced Mods have modifiers of 1.2 to 1.4 ... this means a CE increase of (about) 200-1000 ... about 2-10 extra Command Points, just to place a Mod on an Advanced unit (and give it a slight edge in killing power).

Mod CE Modifiers will be flipped ... the new ranges will be as follows:

Simple Mods: 1.35 - 1.2 CE Modifier (with a few exceptions for mods that harm a unit, ie. Patchwork Armor)
Intermediate Mods: 1.25 - 1.15 CE Modifier
Advanced Mods 1.2 - 1.05 CE Modifier

Examples - Mods
HighTower Shield Generator, Advanced Mod - Old CE Modifier: 1.35 ... New CE Modifer 1.2
Buckler Light Shield Generator, Simple Mod - Old CE Modifier: 1.05 ... New CE Modifer 1.25

On top of this, Unit CEs are getting tweaked across the board. Almost every Advanced vehicle will get a 15% CE reduction, Intermediate vehicles will get a 10% reduction, and some Simples will get a small boost in CE (to raise the floor a bit and tighten the range).

Examples - Units
OLD SYSTEM
Ground-hog with decent crew and 4 Advanced Mods
Base CE: 125
Crew: 1.3 (Level 4)
Mod - Hightower: 1.35
Mod - Deathlance: 1.2
Mod - Hyperbat: 1.3
Mod - Burster: 1.175
Total CE: 402

Brightlance with same crew and mods
Base CE: 1100
Crew: 1.3 (Level 4)
Mod - Hightower: 1.35
Mod - Deathlance: 1.2
Mod - Hyperbat: 1.3
Mod - Burster: 1.175
Total CE: 3,538

And this is how it is under the current system. I can drop almost 9 Super-Hogs for the cost of the 1 Brightlance ... and those Hogs are going to eat the Brightlance for lunch.

NEW SYSTEM - Here's how it's going to look with the Mod Restrictions and CE re-balancing:
Ground-hog with decent crew and 4 Simple Mods
Base CE: 140
Crew: 1.15 (Level 4)
Mod - Buckler Light Shield Generator: 1.2
Mod - Hellseeker Energy Turret: 1.2
Mod - Wartech Gattling Repeater: 1.3
Mod - Scatterfire Gatling Gun: 1.25
Total CE: 392

Brightlance with same crew and Advanced mods
Base CE: 900
Crew: 1.15 (Level 4)
Mod - Hightower: 1.2
Mod - Deathlance: 1.15
Mod - Hyperbat: 1.2
Mod - Burster: 1.15
Total CE: 1,971

Now the CE increases are much more in-line with increased killing power of the unit. The Hog still gets a nice bump in killing power, but that increase is _much_ more in-line with it's CE increase. The Brightlance's drop cost increases by 10, which might be a touch-high ... but it's _much_ more in-line with what the unit can actually do, especially when compared to the Hog.

In Short I plan to roll the Mod changes and this CE update out at the same time. I do expect some growing pains with this change, but I feel it's going to (finally) make Advanced units the efficient killers they're designed to be, while still leaving Simple units as decent trainers / scouts.


Please post feedback below ...
_f
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whistles384
Hopeless Romantic


Joined: 22 Sep 2005
Posts: 1019
Location: Somewhere between this realm and the next

PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

can you make that more "female friendly"???
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Centorbot
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Joined: 21 Nov 2005
Posts: 523
Location: Cambridge, England

PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So your going to do this instead of limiting the mod slots or restricting simple units to simple mods? If so its a great idea! If not then still great but not as great Razz

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Yojimbo
Simple


Joined: 09 Dec 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks very good.

Yep.. some serious grumbling will be heard for the near term as ppl settle back into the new system but I think it will assuredly diversify the vehicles we see out and about. Which is a very good thing IMHO.

Yoj
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Yellowsub
Simple


Joined: 09 Nov 2005
Posts: 50
Location: greenacres WA

PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

there is only one problem with that

it still keeps Super hogs ont the table and it doesn't increase teh cost at all

not that im complaining but if you do that then what is the point of using mods on a Advanced meka. it would reduce the cost to drop a hog as well wouldn't it?

to me it makes more sense to have the modiifyer be different only when placing them on lower units like i posted before. that way when you put a advance mod on a simple unit instead of a 1.25 CE cost it's a 2.00 CE cost per mod. that would more thatn triple the costs of hogs makeing them virtually useless when comapiring it to the CE cost of an Advanced meka where the CE cost isnt affected it's still 1.25 CE.

That is just what makes sense to me but that is only if we have to change i personally feel that we keep it the same
Very Happy
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Yojimbo
Simple


Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Posts: 49

PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not sure how the code works but would it be just as easy to give the mods a flat cost?

This gives the effect you want but without the odd side effect of having simple mods cost more to put on then advanced ones even for the advanced vehicles.

For example say that a Burster Heavy Turret costs 100 CE to put on a mek. The cost to put that mod on a Ground-hog would be 1.8. Put the same mod on a Brightlance and the cost is 1.09.

It will be more efficient to put the big mods on the big meks. And the efficeiency diffference is across the board not just broken down into the 3 broad categories.

Yoj
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Yojimbo
Simple


Joined: 09 Dec 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OH yeah.. and as a side bonus the flat rate would be effective with either option of limiting Slots on vehicles.

1. Simple has 2 slots, int 3 and advanced 4.

2. Only simple mods on simple meks and so forth.

While swapping the cost multiplier only works if you use option 2.

(In option 1 even the simple vehicles get the discounted rate of the higher level mods)

Yoj
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Tessie
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Joined: 14 Dec 2005
Posts: 156
Location: Norway

PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guys, did you even read the post?

First of all, it says this will be in _addition_ to the "simple units = simple mods" suggestion, so there won't be an issue of hogs getting even cheaper Death Lances..

I do however see one serious issue with this one..

As far as I can see, this change will not only prevent people from using int/adv mods on simple units, but also stop people from using simple mods on advances units, because the simple mods cost more to use than advanced ones.. And why is that a bad thing?

Well, first of all, the way things are now, one has the option of going for a less effective mod in order to cut deploy costs, and I consider that a nice strategic option.

In addition, this will enhance what I think is the disadvantage of going with with that simple unit=simple mod idea, and that is it will seriously limit the possible mod combinations you can use. So even if I applaud the effort to make it more worthwhile to put mods on advanced units, I do feel it would be better with a system where putting adv mods on simple units will cost you, either by a further CE penalty or by it taking up more than one slot. That will maintain a high level of flexibility, instead of just denying the use of certain mods on certain units.

[EDIT] Didn't see jimbo's posts untill after I posted... Think your idea could work out well.. Smile
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Frizz
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Joined: 10 Jun 2005
Posts: 3814

PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd say that the "Super Hog" problem needs to be fixed (ie. removed) first. Then see if there's a way to re-introduce it that doesn't cause the problems that are appearing right now.

_f
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Stormwind
Simple


Joined: 17 Jan 2006
Posts: 25

PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is an idea for the masses, that might fix the problem altogether along with these other changes. or none of them.

Give armor defense values to units as follows or modified:

Advanced units take 3 less damage from any simple vehicle, no matter what modifications it has. This gives the the focus that advanced units are the beasts they are supposed to be. 100 hogs could and SHOULD be able to take on any single advanced unit, but with strategy (commands) where as 3 hogs would not stand a chance or even 5-10 hogs. each each hit they are doing 3 less damage to any advanced unit.

Advanced units take 1 less damage from any intermediate vehicle so a group of intermediate vehicles would be much more effective against an advanced unit.

Intermediate vehicles take 2 less damage from any simple vehicle.

This isn't all of the change, imagine simple vehicles small, intermediate medium sized and advanced large size (with some exceptions).

Now to the other benefits, an advanced units does +3 damage to any simple vehicle, and +2 damage to any intermediate vehicle. An intermediate vehicle does +2 damage to any simple vehicle.

This gives the edge to advanced units as it should be, but it doesn't mean a group of intermediate and/or simple can't take out advanced. How it works a group of 7-10 guys should be able to take down 1 large man. Depending on his expertise and/or training that number could be higher or lower.

I think this idea will fix the issue with super hogs, and super anything. The number can be tweaked as well, but I see a giant gladiator taking a ton of damage from larger advanced units, and sustaining very little damage from those smaller simple units, while the gladiators weapons would hurt and advanced unit, they would shread through any simple unit.

Ideas, thoughts?
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Flostin
Harbinger of Death


Joined: 13 Jun 2005
Posts: 283

PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 2:28 pm    Post subject: Lol Reply with quote

Hehe I am starting to feel guilty seeing people come up with all these guarenteed failure options:) Neither of the 2 options, or anything else listed is going to address the real issue.

Ok, I can't resist, hows about I give you all a hint:)

Every approach I have seen here is just a means to slow down the realization of the next "perfect" unit/mod mix. All you're going to achieve is addressing what you're seeing on the surface as being the problem and along the way make un needed alteration that take away parts of the game that could previously be used.

Figured it out yet?Smile
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worrok
Intermediate


Joined: 24 Dec 2005
Posts: 127
Location: Hell

PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tessie wrote:
Guys, did you even read the post?

First of all, it says this will be in _addition_ to the "simple units = simple mods" suggestion, so there won't be an issue of hogs getting even cheaper Death Lances..

I do however see one serious issue with this one..

As far as I can see, this change will not only prevent people from using int/adv mods on simple units, but also stop people from using simple mods on advances units, because the simple mods cost more to use than advanced ones.. And why is that a bad thing?

Well, first of all, the way things are now, one has the option of going for a less effective mod in order to cut deploy costs, and I consider that a nice strategic option.

In addition, this will enhance what I think is the disadvantage of going with with that simple unit=simple mod idea, and that is it will seriously limit the possible mod combinations you can use. So even if I applaud the effort to make it more worthwhile to put mods on advanced units, I do feel it would be better with a system where putting adv mods on simple units will cost you, either by a further CE penalty or by it taking up more than one slot. That will maintain a high level of flexibility, instead of just denying the use of certain mods on certain units.

[EDIT] Didn't see jimbo's posts untill after I posted... Think your idea could work out well.. Smile


*agrees*
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