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#95 - [Tweak] Merge Archeron and Mortum (added)
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Dark Leth
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Joined: 05 Jul 2005
Posts: 1498

PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trerro wrote:
Arch and Mort were built with 2 things in mind:
1. Not everyone is in the US
2. Only 3-4 facs at a time have 24 hour coverage, and other facs would like to engage in actual army combat, not merely having their bases eaten while they sleep

Merging the planets would shut down both of these, and make the planet simply a TB version of Inf. IMO, we really don't need 2 Infs.

Yes, Arch/Mort is currently dead, but that's a reflection of our lack of players. They were quite active, and quite fun, when we actually had the facs to populate them.


That is why the merger would have 2 sets of payouts and 2 windows. Nothing functionally changes other than those payouts/windows occurring on one planet rather than 2.
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Trerro
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Joined: 11 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 6:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm going to give a full explanation of how (when we have enough players in the game) Arch/Mort used to work from the perspective of a fighting faction outside of the big 4, and why what seems like a trivial change actually completely kills it for all such facs (while the big 4 won't notice the difference).

There are 2 simple facts about Arch/Mort:
1. Arch and Mort grant no FP, so you aren't here to advance your fac.
2. Arch and Mort DO give TB, but if you're in a real battle, the total TB they give will exceed the total TB you paid to participate.

So this raises the obvious question: Why did you bother to deploy here, knowing these 2 facts?

For the big 4, the explanation is pretty simple. You won't be challenged most cycles, so on defense, you get attacked infrequently enough to justify being there. On offense, you get to fight facs you normally don't, and the limited format means you get a real fight, you're not just steamrolling them. They're also actually PRESENT, because they took a base slot on a planet they're awake for. Sure, you likely view this planet as more of a side distraction than anything else, but so long as it's not detracting from the giant battles elsewhere - and it really isn't, it has some value to you, albeit very little.

That's probably not enough for most of the big 4 to even want those planets in the game, and indeed, several members of them are looking for them to be axed, in multiple threads. I'm not necessarily opposed to that, IF there's somewhere for the rest of us to fight, and a simples-only sandbox, though fun, isn't it.

So... why do we bother to deploy here? What is the point of Arch/Mort for the other facs? There's 2 reasons to be here:

The good reason:
You're there to fight. The lack of FP, limited payout, and 4 hour time limit all combine to give you a real fighting chance vs. any faction that seeks to challenge you, in a real army battle, but at a scale you can actually compete at. The odds may be a bit against you, but between choosing to only play cycles when you know you have at least 2-3 players with armies ready to go, and the TB payouts helping to mitigate any losses, you can probably actually expect to turn a profit. The odds that you'll actually see combat are also quite good: someone's likely to go for it at some point during the 7 days. Best of all, if you get a fight, you get a FIGHT. Not someone hitting your base in your sleep at a huge cost to your faction, someone fighting a real army battle vs. deployed defenders.

An important thing to note: You're not actually there for the payouts! The cost of deploying an army to take a bandit node + salving said node for only a few good buildings, a couple of which probably failed to salv + the cost of deploying a large base + the cost of deploying multiple real armies in the actual battle + PvP command spam... yeah, the 7 payouts aren't covering that, you need 3 of them before you even get to the PvP part of that list. If you're turning a profit, it's because you're winning fights. The payouts are simply paying the cost of entry, or most of it anyway.

What if combat never happens? The bandit node fight and giant base deployment cost are still eating 3 payouts, leaving you with ~32 TB, which is rather lame as a fac that was able to fight there in the first place could have earned that 32 TB much faster with a Shak run or Konu group mining effort, with more fun or less effort respectively. At least it's not a total loss though, and at least you aren't LOSING resources to try to start a fight that won't happen.

The bad reason:
You're there to farm. The bandit node actually does turn a small profit when you don't build on it and don't bother to salv the lesser builidings, and since attackers don't go there every day (and like the defenders, often want an actual fight), you can probably scavenge a payout or two. Alternatively, if you see another fac do this, you can whack their fusion, drop one of your own, and get similar results.

There's nothing actually wrong with this. If you see an easy payout, go ahead and claim it. Heck, even a fighting defender is likely to whack a fusion he stumbles on, because hey, free 4 TB.

This, however, clearly is not what Arch/Mort are about, and if that's all that's happening, the planet shouldn't be there. Scavengers should be a side effect of a PvP planet, not the reason for its existence.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So how does simply adding a 2nd payout cycle change anything?

If you're one of the big 4:
It doesn't. You will continue to (barely) use the planet exactly as you do now.

If you're a scavenger:
It's actually *more* attractive, since every day your fusion goes ignored is now at +8 or +12 TB.

If you're there to fight, and not the big 4:
You're either going to become a scavenger, or leave. You can't get a real fight. The chances you'll get a fight in a single pvp period are very low, and the cost of entry is huge. You still pay 3 payouts to set up... then pay another 2 to pull your base down, as you you otherwise lose it during the next cycle - the one you're asleep for. As you're probably only going to get a fight every 5-10 tries, your operational costs are so insane that if you're not winning pretty much every battle, just go fight on Inf. Getting steamrolled won't actually cost more, and you'll at least get some FP here and there that way.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Arch and Mort have a LOT of flaws, and I don't deny for one second that the entire premise of what's encouraging combat here is shaky at best, and flat out nonfunctional when our player count is at its current level.

I'm hesitant to kill them, however, because the goal in theory is to actually revive the game, that means getting new players, and that means having places for other facs to fight.

Hmm, now that I think about it, I may have a better idea...
http://forum.mobrulestudios.com/viewtopic.php?p=152904#152904
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Ok... the intergalactic beer run may have been a bad idea. Whoops!
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Wakka
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Joined: 24 Jan 2013
Posts: 131

PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PvP windows don't work. No one is on at the same time every day, only those who are playing the game EVERY waking hour are concerned over time windows. Also your distinction between the "Big 4" and others factions isn't valid, back when Faction Ranks were useful, having an FP advantage did mean something, however now factions are either inactive or active - and those who are active are at no disadvantage as it comes to down to player skills / funds which is irrelevant to faction place.

You claim people drop to fight, but again I'll ask when the last time a fight of any significance occurred on Mortum / Acheron. I was tempted to drop and fight Tomo yesterday, not because of the planet, but simply because he happened to have an army down, so that has nothing to do with planet which is an issue. The windows are used to dodge PvP, anyone who builds up a node keeps it, anyone who doesn't loses it without a fight. That's the trend on these two planets. People aren't dropping to fight, they're dropping to farm, and mathematically the gains are minimal, yes, but people will still farm it because it is easy. That is also why no one fights, because a fight is almost always a guaranteed loss of resources. No one drops to fight. No one is NOT deploying for the payouts, that's the whole point of the planet, you get more fights on Rynn / Infernus, if they wanted to fight they'd go there. It's not like there is anything stopping you from trying to take an Infernus base when you know that faction is online, but people don't do it because it's dumb - it's not like Mort / Ach is the only place you can go to fight. On the flip side, you take a base on Infernus with the expectancy for someone to take, maybe when afk, then you take it back and this continues until an actual fight occurs. It's not perfect, but it's better than Mort / Ache. Infernus is the planet people go to when they want a fight, because payouts are useless to these large factions and could get the FP elsewhere, Mort and Ach with the PvP windows give them a whole time frame to NOT fight and make some profit.

Almost every planet in the game is for "scavengers" if you're looking at it from a farming perspective. Rynn has resupplys, Konu relics, Hadeas a payout of command, Dom a payout of Command, Esika command, Mort / Ach TBs. Only Infernus / Hellion are where people actually go to fight, no one here has a problem with "scavengers" making a profit, that's what the game is largely about, building resources up and fighting. What we are complaining about is being able to do this with minimal effort. Why can they do it with minimal effort? Because there is no competition for them, and no competition on a planet that has payouts means it is inherently flawed, which is a large problem people had with Dominus.

2nd payout changes for an active (Not "Top 4") Faction?:
More, and hopefully worthwhile profit that you can drop for

For "scavengers":
More profit still, but because there is a bigger payout, more people will want it and you want be able to leave your fusion there freely.

If you're there to fight and not in an "active" faction?:
Go to Infernus if you want to fight, or Hellion that's what they are made for
You can't become a scavenger because you'll get farmed by bigger factions

------------------

Essentially, your post seems to be "smaller" or non-"Big Four" factions can't go these planets and not lose. Well, yeah, of course that's how the game has always been and is an inherent flaw with the FACTION system, nothing to do with how planets operate. If you're in a faction with less people and less resources then you don't deserve to be winning fights, that's how all games with an exponential progression work. It is something I aim to improve when my exams finish, but right now it's what we've got to work with. I know we're trying to revive the game, but right now the game is losing it's core player base activity. You don't revive a person by combing their hair to look nice and attractive for outsiders, you make sure their vital systems are working healthily first, and use that as basis for it to begin thriving again - the same applies to the game, the core of it must be solved before we can even consider having new players.

Thanks,
Pac
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Walterohdim
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Joined: 15 Jun 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If these are done together I vote yes on both. After talking to a lot of people, they feel the most useless current planets are Arch and Mort, but that we can't add a planet without removing one, and there doesn't seem to be enough support currently for a rotation scheme currently to make putting one in place worth it.

so YES and YES
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